Greg Norman Talks LIV Golf, the PGA Tour and the Masters

The man in the Aston Martin skipped the valet stand and cruised through the South Florida parking lot alone, his window lowered. Even at a distance, his hair and side profile announced Greg Norman.

Few golfers have been more talented, more ubiquitous or more divisive across the nearly 50 years since he turned professional.

He spent 331 weeks as the world’s top-ranked golfer, and won the British Open twice. But there were letdowns at other majors: eight runner-up finishes, including three at the Masters Tournament, which concludes Sunday at Augusta National Golf Club.

He had swagger and marketing savvy. But there was an ill-fated attempt in the 1990s to create a World Golf Tour that infuriated the PGA Tour and, later, perhaps Mr. Norman’s most contested act: serving as the commissioner of LIV Golf, the league bankrolled by Saudi Arabia’s sovereign wealth fund, starting in 2021.

The circuit’s emergence split the men’s game and left the Australian golfer widely derided as a glib, greedy apologist for Saudi Arabia and its human rights abuses. Now, the PGA Tour that once condemned LIV is trying to cut a deal with the wealth fund and its leader, Yasir al-Rumayyan.

In February, about a month after Mr. Norman left his job as LIV’s chief executive, President Trump hosted a meeting between Mr. al-Rumayyan and Jay Monahan, the PGA Tour commissioner. Talks seem to have stalled since, with the PGA Tour rejecting a wealth fund proposal that would have permitted LIV to continue. And on Friday, a report released by Democrats on a Senate investigative committee said that the Saudi investment in the PGA Tour “does not make business sense unless it is an effort to buy long-term influence.”

During a conversation in late March, Mr. Norman, who remains on the league’s board, flashed the signature defiance that so often enraged his detractors.

This interview has been edited for length and clarity.

In 2023, I asked Augusta National’s chairman whether you had been invited to that year’s Masters, and he said no. But he left the door open for the future. Have you been invited?

No.

Do you care if you’re back in the golf establishment’s good graces?

No. I always care about golf. I always care about what golf represents to everybody. I care about the growth of the game, what trajectory it’s on. Probably the misjudgment of me is where I’ve valued that, and I always put my country first, golf second and me third.

You’ve said the World Golf Tour episode hurt your play, but how did it shape the next 30 years or so for you?

What disappointed me in 1993 and 2021 was being prejudged. I’ve always been the individual who wants to know the facts, and I don’t prejudge people. What hurt the most in those deals was being prejudged and being, I guess, framed up the wrong way.

I was never going up against the institution. I was always trying to be additive, specifically for the players. There was never in any way, shape or form in my 40-plus years in the game that I wanted to hurt the PGA Tour or the game. I always wanted the world to see that there were other potential opportunities for the game to grow.

At last year’s Masters, there was less chatter about the future of LIV and the tour. But President Trump is now involved in the push for a deal. What will it take to get one done?

I have never been involved with the deal. People have asked me, “Have you spoken to Trump about it?” No, because I’m not involved.

What’s the biggest obstacle to a deal?

There’s one word that’s been used consistently wrong: merger. I don’t even know what the right word is. As far as I know from my boss at the time, it was never going to be a merger. LIV was always going to be a stand-alone.

There’s been some talk recently that al-Rumayyan might not want to swallow LIV ceasing to exist as a stand-alone brand. Is that true?

I can only go on what he says in our meetings: that LIV is a stand-alone, and LIV will be around long after he’s dead.

When the tour and LIV were in the most bruising parts of this saga, the tour wrapped itself in morality and the American flag. Then it looked to make a deal. Were you surprised?

I don’t like people misjudging the situation or not knowing the facts. All I wish is that Jay may have taken my phone call or that Jay would have met with Yasir to understand the facts — no different than what the players did.

What similarities do you see between the PGA Tour’s response to your World Golf Tour idea and its initial response to LIV? Was it the same playbook?

Identical.

LIV needed the Saudi Public Investment Fund’s money.

One hundred percent.

But did the Saudi money doom LIV from the start with many people?

The massive headwinds right out of the gate used that as the detrimental side of money. When you look at all of the other investments the P.I.F. has done, direct and indirect, into the United States — and what the U.S. government has done in Saudi Arabia — you go: “Hmm, OK, really? Who turned this tap on?”

But I get it. That’s when you’re fighting for your turf. You’re going to fight for it as hard as you possibly can.

How much interest did Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman have in this project?

I have never spoken to him.

On Fox News in 2023, the crown prince effectively acknowledged that LIV was sportswashing and that he was OK with that. Are you OK with that?

I don’t like the term because I don’t think it’s correct because everybody interprets it a different way.

In 2022, you were asked about the murder of the journalist Jamal Khashoggi by Saudi agents and replied, “We’ve all made mistakes, and you just want to learn from those mistakes and how you can correct them going forward.” A lot of people saw you as covering for the Saudis.

I think if I had to take something back from my entire three and a half years, I probably would have answered that question differently, or not answered it at all. Even though I tried to say it the way I felt — because we all do make mistakes no matter who you are or what you do — it’s the situation when you say it and how people interpret it.

Did you consider how working with the Saudis could cost you, reputation-wise?

I took that into consideration for sure. But I was naïve.

And once you’re in, you’re in. I’m not a quitter, so I’m just going to see it through for what I believe is right.

Was there any part of you that signed up with the Saudis for money or retribution?

None.

I can say that with my hand on my heart.

When I realized that the fight with the World Tour was done and dusted, I lost, right? I lost not on what was right. I lost on people working behind the scenes better than I could. Did it sting for a period of time? Yeah. Then I just said to myself, “Hey, go back to doing what you do best, and that’s swing a golf club.” And I got back in the saddle.

So I never went in there with “I want to get even.” I just always believed that there was an opportunity for the game, and I think we did change the game.

The PGA Tour has, in select cases, adopted some of LIV’s signatures, like no-cut events. Do you see that as vindication?

I think it’s a realization of some things they may have overlooked.

You’ve often felt prejudged and misunderstood. Does it bother you?

(Four-second pause.)

The answer to that — because of the hesitation, obviously — is yes.

The truth sets you free, and until you know the truth, you’re the one carrying the burden, not me. Does it hurt me to some degree? Yes. But I’m over it now.

I’ve never second-guessed myself on taking the C.E.O. role of LIV. I was proud of what I did there.

Were you pushed out?

Not at all.

Did you ever feel used by the wealth fund or Saudi Arabia?

I don’t think the word “used” is the right word. I think they chose the right person.

You last played a major in 2009, the same year you last appeared in the Masters. Do you miss the Masters or major-tournament golf?

Not really. I’m 70 years old.

Do I enjoy watching the majors? I don’t enjoy watching golf.

Who’s your Masters pick?

Depends on the weather.